Firstly to make clear my position - I have many gay friends and gay members of my family. My wife and I have supported a gay couple in their attempt to adopt.
So, Islam says that being gay is a sin. It is haram. Right? Allah hates it. Sodomy is one of the worst types of sin in Islam, as far as I can tell from hearsay and from what I've read in your scripture.
There is also the overwhelming cultural aversion to homosexuality. I have never come across a community, that is, a group loosely connected by religion or wealth or interest or occupation, that has more dislike and hatred of gays than Muslims. In a recent poll, although I cannot find the source, 60% of Muslims in the UK want to criminalise homosexuality (I presume both male and female).
Is this a straightforward topic for Muslims? Is it something that is wrong, that non-Muslims should not be able to practice, that Muslims should definitely not be able to practice, that should be forbidden to be normalised in schools, homophobia should not be restricted, gays should be criminalised?
In Islam all sex outside marriage is Haraam. (the two classical positions on homosexuality are that either it is the same as sex outside marriage, or it is worse. Gut instinct would suggest that the latter would be the widespread classical view.)
Islam is also to be practiced by Muslims, so in most cases its religious rules do not apply to Non Muslims. (on the other hand, criminal rules may well apply...)
The aversion to homosexuality may be cultural, but it is also religious.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Is homosexuality specifically mentioned? Or does it just say sodomy? If just sodomy, then what about lesbianism? Is that specifically covered in the scripture?
In response to your reply, I guess homosexuality would involve the sin of sodomy as well as the sin of sex outside marriage, so it would be worse!
No Muslim country could ever legalise homosexuality then.
Would it be possible for Muslims, in a non-Muslim country, to support gay rights, or would they have no choice but to seek to criminalise being gay? Is it permissible for Muslims to be friends with gay people? To work with them? To work for them? To employ them?
Lastly, I hear the Muslim treatment for being gay is marriage. Does the prospective wife get to know that this is the reason for marriage? Would the poor muslimah simply not be told? Can the wife divorce her husband when she finds out?
its not a "treatment" but a valid outlet of sexual desire. and yes, both spouses should know what will be of issue to them (and I would say it is up to them to communicate that to each other too).
Not sure how that will be discussed though...
Even in a Muslim country they are still human.
What Muslims cannot do is support haraam activity or think it not wrong. Outside that, it is up to the person as to how they interact with others.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
A gay person getting married in no way equates with a valid outlet of sexual desire, as the majority of gay men have no sexual desire for women.
A major part of the system is mechanical. I don't buy the whole "we have no choice" argument and while many people living a homosexual lifestyle will find this offensive, it is true that many have changed and gone for a straight lifestyle. It may not easy, it may not be simple, but it can happen.
As for rights - it depends on what you mean by rights. You mentioned adoption in the original post.
My personal view on adoption is that if someone chooses a lifestyle that will not naturally create kids, they should not cheat their choices by then trying an alternative method, which in this case is adoption.
(More, straight couples should consider adoption before they try IVF.)
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Well of course, even in the face of almost all homosexuals saying they had no choice in their sexuality, you can't say that they were born that way, as that would conflict with Islam, given that Allah would have made them that way.
What about some of my other questions in post 3?
People always say they "have no choice" on many matters when they actually do.
Maybe they do not have a choice on who or what they are attracted towards, but they do have a choice on how to act on such urges (as seen by a guy who was convicted and had to sign the sex offenders register after getting too kinky with a bicycle. the metal kind.)
and yes, it HAS been documented that people have changed their behaviour and their ways - a lot of this has been in the "bible belt" in the US.
Google suggests that lesbianism is explicitly covered in hadith - sihaq is considered zina.
The verses covering homosexuality in general are the ones that are about the people at the time of Prophet Lut:
[qs:7:80-83]
where it is mentioned what is halaal and how they rejected it.
More verses:
[qs:26:165-166]
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Just a place to add this as it is unrelated, but the recent outburst by Elton John (and I read there has previously been a play on this too) calling Prophet Jesus (as) homosexual is something I find deeply offensive.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Snap but why dont muslims speak about it? if it was Muhammad (Saw) there would be uproar..
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane, by those who couldn't hear the music...
On 14/3/2006, Ayatollah Sistani told Iraqis to kill gays by taking them
on top of a mountain and pushing them off the edge.
He wanted queer men to be excecuted in the most severe of ways.
But for some reason he removed the order. I dont know why.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/sistani-renounces-fa...
there were no mountains in Iraq, its all desert.
he might be thinking of forcing gays to eat sand.
a lot of them were killed anyway. there was a big witch hunt of homos. they were shot dead on the streets. Sistani followers found out weeks later that he had taken back his fatwa on gays. in the mean time they had executed many gay men.
http://www.petertatchell.net/international/sistani.htm
Ayatollah rightly named America as "Great Satan".
www.presstv.ir
Whilst doing research for my coursework I came across this:
That's awful!
What is your coursework about?
How do they determine who is gay and who isn't? How often is this procedure carried out?
Coursework is about state terror, so used that example to compare with Saddam Hussein's regime which used systematic torture.
If you're interested in knowing more about the various torture methods used in Iraq then let me know and I'll PM it to you. Some of the methods are very imaginative and horrific at the same time.
I do not know the answers to your last two questions though.
Why would any sane person choose torture as a topic to study?
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
The module is on terrorism and state terror happened to be one of the possible questions I could answer. It was either that or counter-terrorism.
Counter terrorism is interesting - you get things wrong and people could go boom. That adds a new perspective on things that is not there for eg anti-theft operations.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
America is the Great Satan.
Every muslim can see that; and now even non-muslims say it is americans who are creating troubles and violence everywhere, especially after the illegal and immoral war on Iraq in which US killed thousands of innnocent women and children. they also tortured muslims in secret prisons. Lanat on America.
Ayatollah rightly named America as "Great Satan".
www.presstv.ir
We muslims dont believe that all that crap which America tries to tell the world. Allah already told us what murder is, what rape is, what theft it, what invasion is, what porn is, what freedom is, what good way of living is. We dont need America and Europe to preach morality to us. They are not in a position to point their immoral fingers at muslims.
but the question is:
What is the difference between terrorism and counter terrorism.
We all know that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
Hezbollah, who kicked Israeli arse in 2006, says it carries out anti-terrorism operations against Israel which is engaged in state terrorism with American support. You just have to listen to how Bush, Obama and disgraceful cow Hilary Clinton is lining up to assure Israel of more money bombs to kill Palestinians in Gaza. Even when they know UN had condemned Israel for war crimes in Gaza in 2009.
So all this terrorism and anti-terrorism depends where you stand. If you stand with Satan, you will see believers are petential terrorists. If you stand with Allah, you will see America's war on terrorism as war OF terror.
May the curse of God be on America and its supporters.
Ameen.
Ayatollah rightly named America as "Great Satan".
www.presstv.ir
So I assume when the secret police in Iran were killing their own people, that was somthing other than terrorism?
I also assume you think the ayatollahs who are now opposing the regime are the stooges of the US?
Worst thing is that was nothbing to do with an Iran Vs US thread. Why do you have to pollute everything?
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Iran police is no different than any other police, i would say it is lot better than american secret police who beat up protestors and detain muslim without charge for 98 days.
Ayatollah rightly named America as "Great Satan".
www.presstv.ir
dont forget the american secret CIA which kidnaps you and send you in rendition flights to be tortured.
do you senators who oppose obama are stooges of Iran?
Ayatollah rightly named America as "Great Satan".
www.presstv.ir
so which ones do you consider wrong?
Afterall theyere is blodshed, so one set of ayatollahs is in the wrong.
I would say its the ones in charge.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Iran said Britain and US were behind the unrest.
but i can see, you swallow propaganda against muslims.
you have to ask who is telling you all this bull shit.
BBC?
I suggest you listen to muslims sources:
www.presstv.com
many non-muslims now watch Iranian TV on sky channel 515.
but if you want to love America and think it speaks the truth, then carry on believing whatever yo hear.
as far as i am concered, they are static evil muslim hating nation who kill bomb and rob islamic lands.
God curse them and sink them.
Ayatollah rightly named America as "Great Satan".
www.presstv.ir
Now, now, malik, naughty naughty
You can be a bit ofan xtremist sometimes you know.
you shouldnt ask Allah to curse them and sink them,
Remember what Sayidanna Muhammad
asked Allah when the people of the city were throwing stones at him, thus covering him in blood?
He prayed to Allah SWT for forgiveness on their behalf and also to make them see the light...
[color=blue]Never take some one for granted, hold every person close to your Heart because you might wake up one day and realize that you have lost a diamond while you were too busy collecting stones...[/color]
Prophet (pbuh) also fought wars.
Allah even destroyed whole cities of Sodom and Gomorah because too many queers in them.
Ayatollah rightly named America as "Great Satan".
www.presstv.ir
an ideal world would be one in which there was peace and unity.
Your ayatollah encourages you to believe in right and wrong.
Does he himself encourage you to hate America?
Maybe so, but maybe not. Personally i do not have much knowledge on shia teaching so shouldn't have a right to speak here.
I don't support what America are doing around the world but that cannot be seen as the only problem with any worldy government. There are places around the world Muslim countries Iran for instance that use their secret army to opress their people. Is that right? Israel are supported by America openly but still their country is their own i guess they could choose not to take Americas support but they oppress and kill the people of Gaza. Lives are lost daily, globally and Bloodshed will be bloodshed whether it is an American, British, Iranian or anybody else who is inflicting the damage.
Hatred for somebody who is causing harm. Natural instinct and feeling to have but Islam doesn't teach us to pray for anybody's downfall. If somebody is not right, pray for them to take the right path. If you beleive that America is satan himself. Then pray for America's people. If you ohnestly beleive that every American is against you as a Muslim then i guess your slightly extreme views will probably give them reason to be that way. As Muslims many people fear us, a few blow themselves up we are all given the name. Labelled a terorist. Not every muslim is a terrorist. terrorism isn't right by Islam. We feel strongly about these things. So then as a Muslim why label other people so stereo typically?
Maybe it's time to stop and think?
Exception you saying only iran has secret police? what about CIA that great satan uses to kidnap and torture people? no country is more oppressive and evil that america. most american hate their own government.
you are still defending Israeli crimes in Gaza. either you are a jews or under the influence of jews. do you work for zionisits? how can you stand and defend israeli army murdering innocent women and children in gaza. you are an evil person. you got blood on your hands too. God will sort you out on the day of judgement. May God curse you.
america is root cause of most of the wars and evils in the world. just take a look, are you blind or what. great satan invaded iraq and UN condemned it as illegal and immoral war. if you were a judge, would you believe a witness who is caught lying? US lied about WMD and still telling lies about iran.
do you believe all those lies that CNN tell you?
watch Press TV on sky channel 515. see the website www.presstv.com.
you should think and speak justly and not fear other people. if you cant do that then you are inhuman.
Curse of God be upon evil Israel and satanic America, the murderers of women and children in Palestine and around the world.
Ameen.
Ayatollah rightly named America as "Great Satan".
www.presstv.ir
Firstly. thankyou for calling me evil & asking god to curse me. does that sound like something that the quran would encourage? If you beleive so then Carry on. I pray that Allah (swt) guides you on the right path & for your happiness & good health.
Secondly I am not defending Israel. Work for zionists?I dont work I'm at school. Would you care to explain to me how i was defending the isreali's? That was not my aim. I don't side with the isrealies. But i don't hate the jews. Zionists & jews there is a huge difference. The jews were the people of moses who followed the torah that was revealed to him. The religion may have changed since then but then the people who are following this changed religion cannot be classed as Jews surley?
Thridly Iran has a secret polise Yes. SO do many other countries around the world. Hitler had them. Stalin had his NKVD. Many countries still have them It's wrong, no matter when in time. or where in the world, Innocent peoples blood bieng shed is wrong. Morrally, Islammicaly and Ethically. I was not trying to say that other places are not bad but that before you begin to point fingers elswhere you should understand your own mistakes.
You need to understand that every American is not Evil. Yes america is the root of alot of the problems in the world. The system in which the American people live in is the reason that the rest of the world is suffering. The American Dream makes no sense. But NOT EVERY American can be called a satanist. That is unjust judgment. I don't beleive that every Israeli hates the palestinians. Governments & leaders make decesions to start wars. & the people in that country cannot stop it. Saying that America is Satan is like colouring the hole of mankind in with one crayon. Were not all the same colour, Not all of us have the same eyes or hair colours. Not All of us think the same way or feel the same way. Every individual person has their own choice. You cannot say that each and every american person is Satan.
And as for watching CNN. I don't waste my time listening to the lies that i am told. The truth isn't heard through a voice on the tv. I don't beleive that America is a just nation nor that it is fair or that it does not oppress other nations.I beleive that America oppresses other nations I blame the rulers I hate the way the isreali's are treating the people of Gaza. I blame there zionist leaders who are funded by the American leaders. I don't blame every Isreali or Every American.
I don not fear anybody except Allah & what i am saying is soley what i beleive. More over i think you yourself fear the truth and are slightly extreme.
May Allah guide everybody who has strayed back to teh right path & show his mercy to the women and children suffering in Gaza & around the world. Ameen
Malik scares me...
I hope ur not married...poor wifey
well
homosexuality is a sin
but I dont think the muslim community is the "most" homophobic
ALL societies to an extent show such feelings
even in the west, when someone is gay, they dont "come out" for years because of the pressures they will face and how their parents will react
so its not just a "muslim" thing
In the West the battleline is whether gays can marry or not. In Muslim countries gays are getting their anuses superglued shut. There's a slight difference.
If a country falls under Sharia, that integral part of your religion, gays will be the first to be lined up and have their heads hacked off (possibly by 12 year old Muslim boys being shown the ropes).
Non-fundamentalist Muslims may be brave enough (until a few of them are killed for causing mischief or being gay) to raise a voice for moderation, but by then it would be too late as the fundamentalists would be in control.
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